UKVoIPTalk.com

<M.Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:rnh8g2pbs21cjlbglq8n5nfn5ckp32ie5l@4ax.com[color=blue]
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 16:50:13 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
> <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>
>[color=green]
> > As for the statement "Free calls for £7.99 a month"
> > that just doesn't make sense. I suppose it must be some
> > new definition of the word "free" of which I was
> > previously unaware.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> how many more times before you get it into your thick
> head the 7.99 is just like the £ 11.00plus people are
> paying to BT[/color]

No it's not. The BT charge is a line rental. The Vonage charge is payable
in addition to the line rental, as you still need BT or cable to get it.
[color=blue]
> plus calls and yes the calls ARE free to all
> 01 and o2 numbers and their equivalents in the whole of
> Ireland . The only 01 and 02 numbers you can dial from
> your beloved useless Sipgate account are to other Sipgate
> users .[/color]

As I've told you, most of my calls are to other Sipgate users. The few
calls I make to chargeable numbers are so few as to make little
difference. As I said, 25p a month or so usually.
[color=blue]
> NOW ONCE AGAIN CALLS FROM A VOAGE ACCOUNT TO ALL
> 01 and 02 NUMBERS ARE TOALLY FREE.[/color]

Don't shout. They're not free if you have to pay a charge, any charge, to
get them.
[color=blue]
> By the way have you yet come to the conclusion that you
> ARE a European if not what are you an Australian or an
> American or something .[/color]

No.

Ivor

On 2006-09-10, Ivor Jones <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:[color=blue]
>
> "¬Stephen Hammond" <Stephen7372@hotmail.com> wrote in
> message news:ee0pjr$jqs$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk[color=green]
>> If you phone 0800 804 8988 you can receive free calls to Australia,
>> USA, Canada, New Zealand, Germany and Ireland all for £7.99 per
>> month.[/color]
>
> All my received calls are free..! As are most of those I dial for that
> matter.[/color]

But can you shimmy like my sister Kate?
[color=blue]
> As for the statement "Free calls for £7.99 a month" that just doesn't make
> sense.[/color]

Indeed it does.
[color=blue]
> I suppose it must be some new definition of the word "free" of
> which I was previously unaware.[/color]

No, not new. It's in common use.

Brian.

"Brian" <bandj@o2.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ee1mo5$o98$1$830fa79d@news.demon.co.uk[color=blue]
> On 2006-09-10, Ivor Jones <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:[color=green]
> >
> > "¬Stephen Hammond" <Stephen7372@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > message news:ee0pjr$jqs$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk[color=darkred]
> > > If you phone 0800 804 8988 you can receive free calls
> > > to Australia, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Germany and
> > > Ireland all for £7.99 per month.[/color]
> >
> > All my received calls are free..! As are most of those
> > I dial for that matter.[/color]
>
> But can you shimmy like my sister Kate?[/color]

No idea, I've never seen her. How is it relevant..?
[color=blue][color=green]
> > As for the statement "Free calls for £7.99 a month"
> > that just doesn't make sense.[/color]
>
> Indeed it does.[/color]

How so..? Free to me means without charge. £7.99 or any other amount above
£0.00 for that matter is a charge which has to be paid in order to receive
the service. Hence it is not free.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > I suppose it must be some new definition of the
> > word "free" of which I was previously unaware.[/color]
>
> No, not new. It's in common use.[/color]

See above. Free means free not £x per month.

Ivor

On 2006-09-10, Ivor Jones <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:[color=blue]
>
> "Brian" <bandj@o2.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ee1mo5$o98$1$830fa79d@news.demon.co.uk[color=green]
>> On 2006-09-10, Ivor Jones <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:[color=darkred]
>> >
>> > "¬Stephen Hammond" <Stephen7372@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> > message news:ee0pjr$jqs$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk
>> > > If you phone 0800 804 8988 you can receive free calls to
>> > > Australia, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Germany and Ireland all for
>> > > £7.99 per month.
>> >
>> > All my received calls are free..! As are most of those I dial for
>> > that matter.[/color]
>>
>> But can you shimmy like my sister Kate?[/color]
>
> No idea, I've never seen her. How is it relevant..?[/color]

It has as much relevance as your contrived response to the OP.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>> > As for the statement "Free calls for £7.99 a month" that just
>> > doesn't make sense.[/color]
>>
>> Indeed it does.[/color]
>
> How so..? Free to me means without charge.[/color]

I believe the Vonage offer is available only by phoning the 0800 number
given. Those taking it up will not be charged for calls to the listed
countries. It seems existing customers will be charged; there is nothing
on the website saying otherwise. So, free calls for some people.
[color=blue]
> £7.99 or any other amount above
> £0.00 for that matter is a charge which has to be paid in order to receive
> the service. Hence it is not free.[/color]

The 7.99 GBP gives access to Vonage's services, one of which is the
ability to make calls to the PSTN. It is not exactly an unknown business
model in the voip world. Betamax and voip.co.uk use it, for example. The
calls are free at the point of use.

It seems to me you are looking for zero cost as well as zero charge to
have calls qualify as free. I expect we will continue to differ on this
but I think that is an unreasonable use of 'free' in this context.

Brian.

Brian wrote:[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> Indeed it does.[/color]
> >
> > How so..? Free to me means without charge.[/color]
>
> I believe the Vonage offer is available only by phoning the 0800 number
> given. Those taking it up will not be charged for calls to the listed
> countries. It seems existing customers will be charged; there is nothing
> on the website saying otherwise. So, free calls for some people.
>[color=green]
> > £7.99 or any other amount above
> > £0.00 for that matter is a charge which has to be paid in order to receive
> > the service. Hence it is not free.[/color]
>
> The 7.99 GBP gives access to Vonage's services, one of which is the
> ability to make calls to the PSTN. It is not exactly an unknown business
> model in the voip world. Betamax and voip.co.uk use it, for example. The
> calls are free at the point of use.
>
> It seems to me you are looking for zero cost as well as zero charge to
> have calls qualify as free. I expect we will continue to differ on this
> but I think that is an unreasonable use of 'free' in this context.[/color]

After all this, I reckon I might go for 3 months free calls for £1.50,
from Babble

Thus spaketh Brian:[color=blue]
> On 2006-09-10, Ivor Jones <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> "Brian" <bandj@o2.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:ee1mo5$o98$1$830fa79d@news.demon.co.uk[color=darkred]
>>> On 2006-09-10, Ivor Jones <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "¬Stephen Hammond" <Stephen7372@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>> message news:ee0pjr$jqs$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk
>>>>> If you phone 0800 804 8988 you can receive free calls to
>>>>> Australia, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Germany and Ireland all for
>>>>> £7.99 per month.
>>>>
>>>> All my received calls are free..! As are most of those I dial for
>>>> that matter.
>>>
>>> But can you shimmy like my sister Kate?[/color]
>>
>> No idea, I've never seen her. How is it relevant..?[/color]
>
> It has as much relevance as your contrived response to the OP.
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>> As for the statement "Free calls for £7.99 a month" that just
>>>> doesn't make sense.
>>>
>>> Indeed it does.[/color]
>>
>> How so..? Free to me means without charge.[/color]
>
> I believe the Vonage offer is available only by phoning the 0800
> number given. Those taking it up will not be charged for calls to the
> listed countries. It seems existing customers will be charged; there
> is nothing on the website saying otherwise. So, free calls for some
> people.
>[color=green]
>> £7.99 or any other amount
>> above £0.00 for that matter is a charge which has to be paid in
>> order to receive the service. Hence it is not free.[/color]
>
> The 7.99 GBP gives access to Vonage's services, one of which is the
> ability to make calls to the PSTN. It is not exactly an unknown
> business model in the voip world. Betamax and voip.co.uk use it, for
> example. The calls are free at the point of use.
>
> It seems to me you are looking for zero cost as well as zero charge to
> have calls qualify as free. I expect we will continue to differ on
> this but I think that is an unreasonable use of 'free' in this
> context.
>
> Brian.[/color]

Vonage aren't offering free calls though, they are offering inclusive
calls, you have to pay £7.99 per month to be able to call those
destinations, if you didn't pay £7.99 then you don't get service, so it
can't be called free.

VoIPStunt etc could probably get away with it a little, as although if
you don't pay you can't call out, if you do pay that credit can still be
used up on chargeable destinations, and not just swallowed up to cover
the 'free' destinations. Though it depends I suppose if you do use your
credit up on chargeable calls.


--
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Items for sale: [url]www.dodgy-dealer.co.uk[/url]

Ivor Jones wrote:[color=blue]
> <M.Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:rnh8g2pbs21cjlbglq8n5nfn5ckp32ie5l@4ax.com[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> how many more times before you get it into your thick
>> head the 7.99 is just like the £ 11.00plus people are
>> paying to BT[/color]
>
> No it's not. The BT charge is a line rental.[/color]

The BT charge is line rental plus their BT Together Option 1 discount
package - BT don't seem to offer "just" line rental to retail customers
any more.

"Brian" <bandj@o2.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ee28a3$rfh$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk
[color=blue]
> The 7.99 GBP gives access to Vonage's services,[/color]

Exactly. You have to pay it in order to get their services, including
these so-called "free" calls.
[color=blue]
> one of
> which is the ability to make calls to the PSTN. It is not
> exactly an unknown business model in the voip world.[/color]

I never said it was. What it *isn't* is free.
[color=blue]
> Betamax and voip.co.uk use it, for example. The calls are
> free at the point of use.[/color]

Not if there is any cost involved.
[color=blue]
> It seems to me you are looking for zero cost as well as
> zero charge to have calls qualify as free.[/color]

What's the difference between zero cost and zero charge..?
[color=blue]
> I expect we
> will continue to differ on this but I think that is an
> unreasonable use of 'free' in this context.[/color]

Free means free. No charge. The word has no other meaning. It's like these
"buy one get one free" offers in the supermarket; there's nothing free
about them, you have to buy something in order to get the so-called "free"
item. It is in effect half price, as you get two items instead of one, but
"free" they aren't, you have to pay for both of them, even if it's a
reduced price.

Ivor

On 2006-09-11, Ivor Jones <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:[color=blue]
>
> "Brian" <bandj@o2.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ee28a3$rfh$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk
>[color=green]
>> The 7.99 GBP gives access to Vonage's services,[/color]
>
> Exactly. You have to pay it in order to get their services, including
> these so-called "free" calls.
>[color=green]
>> one of which is the ability to make calls to the PSTN. It is not
>> exactly an unknown business model in the voip world.[/color]
>
> I never said it was. What it *isn't* is free.
>[color=green]
>> Betamax and voip.co.uk use it, for example. The calls are free at the
>> point of use.[/color]
>
> Not if there is any cost involved.[/color]

Originally you stipulated that free to you means without charge. Now, in
addition, you want it to mean without cost. If that is the meaning you
want 'free' to have here then offhand I cannot think of anything which
is free of charge and free of cost. Breathing, perhaps.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> It seems to me you are looking for zero cost as well as zero charge
>> to have calls qualify as free.[/color]
>
> What's the difference between zero cost and zero charge..?[/color]

There is zero charge for you to use the NHS. It would be unwise to say
it comes at zero cost to you.

A Vonage customer claiming 'All my calls to Germany have zero charge'
could be believed. Asserting 'All my calls to Germany have zero cost' is
dubious.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> I expect we will continue to differ on this but I think that is an
>> unreasonable use of 'free' in this context.[/color]
>
> Free means free. No charge. The word has no other meaning.[/color]

You've given it two meanings. Which is fine by me. I just need to be
clear on which one you are using.

Brian.

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:35:24 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
<ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:

[color=blue]
>Not if there is any cost involved.[/color]
Ok Ivor you say calls to other sipgate users are free but that
statement doesn't hold water really does it how would someone living
in London signing up with Sipgate tonight KNOW if the guy who lives
next door to me or anyone else is on sipgate or not ?????. This
question just dosen't apply to Sipgate most voip providers say the
same thing.