UKVoIPTalk.com

Hi All,

In the case of home-office routers using 2 Internet connections, with
load balancing capacbilities, would the router normally:

a) assign the VoIP call to the connection it judges better suited for
the purpose,
b) assign the VoIP call to one of the connections randomly, as long as
they're both working, or
c) distribuite one call's data packets by the 2 connections,
considering their momentary actual speeds and availability??

As for bonding, from what I've read so far, to start with you need 2
conections with the same ISP, both with the same username... (If your
ISP does not supply the bonding already)

And then, - again if your ISP does not supply bonding - apparently
most "common" and "afordable" routers can't handle it... I stand to be
correct as far as bonding's concerned, please.

Regards,
Jose

Jose wrote:[color=blue]
> Hi All,[/color]
Hi Jose,
[color=blue]
> In the case of home-office routers using 2 Internet connections, with
> load balancing capacbilities, would the router normally:[/color]
[color=blue]
> b) assign the VoIP call to one of the connections randomly, as long as
> they're both working.[/color]

Is the correct answer (depending on line speed and data on that line)

I experimented with allowing the router to do things automatically but
this gave a few problems with calls going over the "primary" connection
which then suffered if I did a big ftp upload etc. whereas I wanted all
calls to ONLY go over my secondary PAYG adsl connection which shares no
other network traffic.

What I did was force all typical internet traffic to connection 1 i.e.
port 80 and 8080, 21 and 22 and manually configured waht the router
believes to be the line speed so connection 1 is a 24 Mbps adsl (only
200m line length to exchange)then I put connection 2 down as a 1Mbps
connection rather than letting the router see it as an 8Mbps.

This way... bandwidth sharing always keeps most traffic through
unlimited connection 1 and voip through connection 2 unless one
connection is down then everything goes through the same connection and
reverts back to normal when back up and running.

Forcing voip to use connection 2 only would mean it couldn't run if
connection 2 went down, hence the manual trickery of autobalancing with
speed tweaks to trick the router.
[color=blue]
> As for bonding, from what I've read so far, to start with you need 2
> conections with the same ISP, both with the same username... (If your
> ISP does not supply the bonding already)[/color]

Can't do voip traffic through bonded connections anyway from what I
remember reading as you can't send "timing critical" voice data down
separate paths.
Besides which... having completely independent connections gives much
much better redundancy.

especially if you can get one with cable <spit> and one adsl or if no
cable then one LLU adsl and one from a BT wholesaler (I use entanet &
ukonline)
[color=blue]
> And then, - again if your ISP does not supply bonding - apparently
> most "common" and "afordable" routers can't handle it... I stand to be
> correct as far as bonding's concerned, please.[/color]

Forget bonding it doesn't work for VOIP.

HTH
Pete

--
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In article <480ca10a.13863187@news20.forteinc.com>,
Jose <go.spam@somewhere.else> wrote:[color=blue]
>Hi All,
>
>In the case of home-office routers using 2 Internet connections, with
>load balancing capacbilities, would the router normally:[/color]

It's no-use asking us - we don't know what router you have. Far better
to read the routers manual...
[color=blue]
>a) assign the VoIP call to the connection it judges better suited for
>the purpose,[/color]

And how would it gauge that metric?
[color=blue]
>b) assign the VoIP call to one of the connections randomly, as long as
>they're both working, or
>c) distribuite one call's data packets by the 2 connections,
>considering their momentary actual speeds and availability??[/color]

Read the fine manual?

I'd suggest that the router would keep the same ADSL line going once a
connection starts and not migrate it to the other line - that would have
the effect of changing the source IP address which remote sites might
not like too much (not to mention the ISP passing the data), so once a
VoIP call starts, the router will keep data for that call down the same
ADSL line for the duration of that call.

I also suspect that handling SIP and NAT over a load balancing router
might be "intersting" too ...
[color=blue]
>As for bonding, from what I've read so far, to start with you need 2
>conections with the same ISP, both with the same username... (If your
>ISP does not supply the bonding already)[/color]

You need an ISP that supports it, and usually much more sophisticated
ADSL modem/router(s) at your end...
[color=blue]
>And then, - again if your ISP does not supply bonding - apparently
>most "common" and "afordable" routers can't handle it... I stand to be
>correct as far as bonding's concerned, please.[/color]

They may be able to do load balancing, which isn't bonding. With
bonding, a single connection can run at double the speed, with load
balancing, a single connection can only run at the speed of one line,
but a 2nd connection can also run at line speed.

I have to say, that what I'd rather have in a SOHO environment is 2
separate router/modems, and put all the VoIP down one of them and all
office data down the other. Saves any fuss and you don't need expensive
load balancing routers either...

And if you need more capacity, then add in a 3rd and have (say) incoming
calls coming in one line, outgoing through the other, and general office
data (web/email) down the third.

I have one client setup this way. (3 ADSL connections) They're averaging
2-3 concurrent incoming calls and slightly more outgoing calls, which is
workable on a single good ADSL line, (830Kbps upload) but it's pushing
it a bit IMO.

Gordon

Gordon Henderson wrote:
[color=blue]
> I also suspect that handling SIP and NAT over a load balancing router
> might be "intersting" too ...[/color]

I use a draytek 2910VG and load balancing worked perfectly when I let it
do it the way it was supposed to. Worked far better with manual tweaking
though
Inbound wasn't a problem as the account would register with whichever
connection the router decided was best at that moment upon which the IP
address of that connection was registered as normal.
[color=blue]
> I have to say, that what I'd rather have in a SOHO environment is 2
> separate router/modems, and put all the VoIP down one of them and all
> office data down the other. Saves any fuss and you don't need expensive
> load balancing routers either...[/color]

Only problem with that Gordon is if either connection goes down which
you can guarantee _will_ happen at some point.

With an "all in one" router as soon as one connection fails the router
can switch traffic to the other connection seamlessly with no noticeable
down time (except for any active calls being cut off)

[color=blue]
> I have one client setup this way. (3 ADSL connections) They're averaging
> 2-3 concurrent incoming calls and slightly more outgoing calls, which is
> workable on a single good ADSL line, (830Kbps upload) but it's pushing
> it a bit IMO.[/color]

have you seen this [url]http://www.voipfone.co.uk/broadband.php[/url]
Not cheap but if it's as good as claimed then cheaper than an additional
ADSL connection.

--
[url]http://gymratz.co.uk[/url] - Fitness & Gym Equipment/nutrition specialists.
[url]http://www.trade-price-supplements.co.uk[/url] - Bulk buy for up to 33% off.
[url]http://www.BBE-Boxing-Equipment.co.uk[/url] - New Boxing Equipment site.
[url]http://www.commercial-gym-equipment.co.uk[/url] - Commercial Gym Equipment.

In article <fuiipn$tv3$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
Pet - [url]www.GymRatZ.co.uk[/url] <discount-gym-equipment@gymratz.gym> wrote:[color=blue]
>Gordon Henderson wrote:[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> I have one client setup this way. (3 ADSL connections) They're averaging
>> 2-3 concurrent incoming calls and slightly more outgoing calls, which is
>> workable on a single good ADSL line, (830Kbps upload) but it's pushing
>> it a bit IMO.[/color]
>
>have you seen this [url]http://www.voipfone.co.uk/broadband.php[/url]
>Not cheap but if it's as good as claimed then cheaper than an additional
> ADSL connection.[/color]

Yes, seen it. This particular client is out in the sticks and only gets
400-500 Kb/sec upload speed though, and I resell Entanet ADSL who I've
found to be excellent for VoIP ...

The down-sides that my customers have pointed out with these more
expensive ADSL packages is that it then become more expensive than ISDN2
connections which I'm trying to persuade them to move away from. It does
vary from provider to provider though - one I looked at was wanting £65
a month for a "VoIP quality" ADSL line...

So for a voipfone ADSL line at £45 a month plus a BT line at £12.50 a
month costs £57.50 a month.. I can get an ISDN2 port (2 channels)
for £27 a month, so 2 ports/4 channels for £54 a month...

Try explaining the VoIP advantage to a small company at those levels
who don't make many phone calls anyway... I've found it far easier to
install a VoIP (asterisk) PBX that uses their exiting ISDN/POTS lines,
then "upgrade" their ADSL line and then start to syphon off outgoing
calls via VoIP (Which I make money on!) than to go the whole hog and
move everything to VoIP.

What I've found in some cases is that there's a good balance of
traditional PSTN and VoIP to be made - sometimes, reduce the ISDN
channel/port count after outgoing calls are being placed via VoIP, but
keep enough boxes to handle incoming calls and a possible fall-back for
outgoing calls. A lot depends on the customer though - if they are a
busy call centre then they'll want to stick to their ISDN lines, so I
can push VoIP for the work from home/remote office connectivity angle.

Gordon

Gordon Henderson wrote:

[color=blue]
> This particular client is out in the sticks and only gets
> 400-500 Kb/sec upload speed though, and I resell Entanet ADSL who I've
> found to be excellent for VoIP ...[/color]

My Entanet PAYG rarely gives problems.
.... then again, I'd probally never notice as as calls would just get
routed over UKonline if it went down.
:¬)
[color=blue]
>a voipfone ADSL line at £45 a month plus a BT line at £12.50 a
> month costs £57.50 a month.. I can get an ISDN2 port (2 channels)
> for £27 a month, so 2 ports/4 channels for £54 a month...[/color]

I didn't realise ISDN was that price.
Funilly enough.... the same price as it was way back in 1998 !!
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_company_file/164247.stm[/url]
:¬)
For me, the pay-off comes from 99% of outgoing calls are to UK mobiles
which seem to range anywhere from 12p/min to 30p/min or some such stupid
rate, but with betamax prices being rediculously cheap to all uk mobile
networks and free calls to almost everywhere else. Telephone calls
aren't even a consideration with regards to cost these days, so we don't
worry about spending as much time as is required calling a customers mobile.

All good stuff though.

Cheers
Pete
--
[url]http://gymratz.co.uk[/url] - Fitness & Gym Equipment/nutrition specialists.
[url]http://www.trade-price-supplements.co.uk[/url] - Bulk buy for up to 33% off.
[url]http://www.BBE-Boxing-Equipment.co.uk[/url] - New Boxing Equipment site.
[url]http://www.commercial-gym-equipment.co.uk[/url] - Commercial Gym Equipment.

In article <fuitbf$5tl$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
Pet - [url]www.GymRatZ.co.uk[/url] <discount-gym-equipment@gymratz.gym> wrote:[color=blue]
>Gordon Henderson wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>> This particular client is out in the sticks and only gets
>> 400-500 Kb/sec upload speed though, and I resell Entanet ADSL who I've
>> found to be excellent for VoIP ...[/color]
>
>My Entanet PAYG rarely gives problems.
>... then again, I'd probally never notice as as calls would just get
>routed over UKonline if it went down.
>:¬)
>[color=green]
>>a voipfone ADSL line at £45 a month plus a BT line at £12.50 a
>> month costs £57.50 a month.. I can get an ISDN2 port (2 channels)
>> for £27 a month, so 2 ports/4 channels for £54 a month...[/color]
>
>I didn't realise ISDN was that price.[/color]

You thought it was more or less?

It's a shade over the cost of 2 analogue lines... Personally, I think it
ought to be a shade cheaper, but there you go...

The break-even for ISDN2 vs. ISDN30 is 8 channels - which oddly enough
is the mimimum number of channels you can order ISDN30 with, although it
all depends on what BT quote for the installation price, and if they
want you to take the hit for them putting fibre into an area... )-:
[color=blue]
>Funilly enough.... the same price as it was way back in 1998 !!
>[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_company_file/164247.stm[/url]
>:¬)[/color]

Indeed!
[color=blue]
>For me, the pay-off comes from 99% of outgoing calls are to UK mobiles
>which seem to range anywhere from 12p/min to 30p/min or some such stupid
>rate, but with betamax prices being rediculously cheap to all uk mobile
>networks and free calls to almost everywhere else. Telephone calls
>aren't even a consideration with regards to cost these days, so we don't
>worry about spending as much time as is required calling a customers mobile.[/color]

I work with small/medium businesses though, who're typically not geeks
or even IT savvy - they want a phone to "just work", so the Betamax
stuff or chasing this weeks cheapest isn't for them, nice though it
is...
[color=blue]
>All good stuff though.[/color]

Indeed!

Gordon

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 21:11:45 +0000 (UTC), Gordon Henderson
<gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
>I work with small/medium businesses though, who're typically not geeks
>or even IT savvy - they want a phone to "just work", so the Betamax
>stuff or chasing this weeks cheapest isn't for them, nice though it
>is...[/color]

If ever there was a bad name to recycle then Betamax must be right
there at the top alongside Enron.


--

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:43:46 +0000 (UTC), Gordon Henderson
<gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
>It's no-use asking us - we don't know what router you have. Far better
>to read the routers manual...[/color]

Linksys RV042. If only Linksys would write fine - as in excelente
quality - manuals ...

[color=blue]
>I have to say, that what I'd rather have in a SOHO environment is 2
>separate router/modems, and put all the VoIP down one of them and all
>office data down the other. Saves any fuss and you don't need expensive
>load balancing routers either...[/color]

I got the load balancing router for automatic redundancy, because when
I'm working I like to concentrate on my work, not on wether the
connection, and when it's time to deliver my work, I like to think
that at least one of my connections won't fail me.

I only thought about VoIP and load balancing afterwards...

Regards,
Jose

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:27:11 +0100, "Pet - www.GymRatZ.co.uk"
<0845-86-86-888@Cheapest-Prices.ever> wrote:
[color=blue]
>I experimented with allowing the router to do things automatically but
>this gave a few problems with calls going over the "primary" connection
>which then suffered if I did a big ftp upload etc. whereas I wanted all
>calls to ONLY go over my secondary PAYG adsl connection which shares no
>other network traffic.[/color]

Well, I worried about the other part - poor call quality if some other
significant Internet activity starts... So I gave the port to which my
ATA is connected, priority over the port to which I connect my PC ;-)

Thanks,
Jose