UKVoIPTalk.com

Hi,


All very nice, warming and lol, etc. :)

Ermm.. point by point... (first thank you for that post - your insight,
suggestions, feedback etc. is very helpful, etc.) :) .

Ok... Perhaps now jump to intersected comments throughout the post below! :)
Thanks.




"T i m" <news@spaced.me.uk> wrote in message
news:linpe3dngv1o1t0fa4usbqggu3liaggrpm@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 19:58:43 GMT, "News Reader" <no@email.invalid>
> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Sounds like you have a very good grasp of the overall ideas and concepts
>>Tim.[/color]
>
> Ok thanks, but as we know the devil is in the detail. ;-(
>
> Much as though I've grown to like the FB I can remember very vividly
> the issues I had setting it up, not something I've had with a router
> for many years now. This was mainly down to (I believe) the box
> origination from Germany where ISDN / ADSL is much more common and
> cable (like mine) comparatively rare. This means to support the nearly
> 'undocumented' use of cable you have to do things with / to the router
> to get it configured that you wouldn't normally. Then there was the
> lack of help with the manual and much of the online help. That
> reminded me of the sort of help you got with PC BIOS's:
>
> "Differential oscillator write back speed.
>
> <Help> This allows you to set the Differential oscillator write back
> speed" (Yeah, I know, but wtf is it!).[color=green]
>>[/color][/color]


lol - great laugh this... but nobody does regular back slapping and laughing
sessions about it... or not enough people...


You would have thought after 10+ years now they would have finally put
something useful in BIOS configuration systems, manuals or help files, etc.

As you say - "Do you want to vary the co-oscillator pre-emptive de-filtering
setting +10%?" Yes / No.
Help: This allows you to choose yes or no as to whether you wish to vary the
.... ! ;) lol

I would however dearly appreciate any insight you can give about using the
FB with cable (enabling of the Port 1 WAN feature / disabling the itnernal
ADSL modem, etc.). :) Thanks.

[color=blue][color=green]
>>I should think the FB would be able to do almost anything you want - it
>>seems to be almost infinitely flexible.[/color]
>
> Seems so so far, but again, much of that is knowing what you are
> aiming for. When I first started installing ADSL routers the routers
> were less 'friendly' and it seemed you had to set 100 fields just to
> make them work (again, little was 'intuitive'). Soon you reaslised you
> actually only had to set maybe 3 or 4 fields to make it actually
> 'work'. With the network side it's pretty straightforward with the FB
> (cable accepting [1]) but many of the Fon settings interact, get one
> field wrong and another 3 simply don't do anything.[color=green]
>>[/color][/color]


Cool... yes it is a funny game... some of these devices are so cool and
amazing...

.... some routers are very simple, others horribly unclear and complicated,

.... some present simple options and helpfully put other more advanced
options on other pages

.... some unreasonably over simplify and don't provide sufficient options

.... some unreasonably over simplify and whilst providing advanced options
failt to indicate their importance or value, etc.

.... some unreasonably over complicate and fail to distinguish core from
peripheral aspects of configuration and options, etc.


All good and fun though and some pretty incredible devices for a few
pounds..


I would appreciate any insights you could provide into the FB router side. I
don't know much or anything really at all about it. Does it have the usual
wide range of features e.g. DMZ, port forwarding, etc., etc.

[color=blue][color=green]
>>lol... I want one ! ;) .[/color]
>
> Well as I said I think I'm getting more and more comfortable with mine
> but really feel some of the documentation needs sorting to really help
> those of us that want actual answers rather than just statements that
> a field exists. It's not 'terrible' in this respect, just not 'good'
> maybe?
>[/color]


I think that is a very fair point. Some are better than others - sometimes
these things take time - product comes first documentation builds over time
later.. others the documentation never makes it :) .

[color=blue]
> I worked for BT for 5 years (although in Electronics / Datacomms
> repair rather that telephony) and have been a basic networks engineer
> for some time but until now haven't really come across VoIP outside of
> configuring the mating ports on a pair of Muxes, or using Skype or
> Teamspeak in online games etc. This means that the 'optionsl' of VoIP
> (the way the different service providers do or don't interact, the
> options on the kit / software) is as 'familiar' to me as Linux ..
> (ie, it's ok when it works but when it doesn't I'm sorta lost).[/color]


It is a lot of fun... and a bit like routers... when you discover the
incredible range of options, etc. it is quite amazing and impressive. All
the more so when you consider that often you get first ... BANG... a very
impressive router... then BANG... a very impressive ATA ...all in the same
device. The good ATAs seem little short of completely wonderful... with as
many or more options than routers... being able to vary all the tones and
signals, etc. right down to the duration and pitch etc. of the ringing
tones, etc. :) . The world of telecom in a box (or support for / emulation
of all the worlds telecoms systems [signals, dial tones, ringing tones,
etc., break timings, etc.] in one box).


[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>>
>>P.s. I think the only issue is knowing how to configure it! [ / and / or
>>mastering configuration of dialling plans, etc. ] .[/color]
>
> Yep and something once explained properly to me I'm pretty sure I will
> 'get' but at the moment I still feel very much in the dark with the
> detail ..
>[/color]


Absolutely.

[color=blue]
> All the best ..
>
> T i m
>
> [1] I fed-back to AVM that there was hardly a mention of the FB's
> ability to be used over a cable modem. Not in the manual, help or
> online. They agreed and gave me a voucher for 333 'minutes' but I'm
> still not sure what that actually was as they all seem to have run out
> and we have only used 10 of them (and it's only a couple of weeks
> since we activated it). :-([/color]


;) lol - interesting... again if you could mention about using with cable
that would be great, helpful and appreciated. Perhaps the 333 minutes is for
calling domestically within Germany... you may have been classed as LD (long
distance) if calling the UK ? Who knows... all good fun ... (perhaps they
are just special "minutes" that actually last 3% as long as a normal minute
? :) ).


Best wishes and thanks,




News Reader

"Philippe Deleye" <Philippe.Deleye@blablabla.advalvas.be> wrote in message
news:46ece98d$0$13856$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...[color=blue]
>
> "News Reader" <no@email.invalid> wrote in message
> news:TPWGi.762$X%4.174@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
>[color=green]
>> I should think the FB would be able to do almost anything you want - it
>> seems to be almost infinitely flexible.
>>
>> lol... I want one ! ;) .[/color]
>
> Plenty for sale on e-bay.de (they go ca 60 EUR)
> only two backsides if you buy 2nd hand German boxes:
> 1) all menus in german
> 2) ADSL is Annex B
> Both for which (non-official) firmware fixes available ..
>
>
>[/color]


Hi,

Thanks Philippe... that is very much appreciated. I have scanned a few ebay
auctions and certainly seem to have seen second hand units going for as low
as ~10 Euros.

As you say - those appeared to be the caveats...

My concerns were:

- unofficial firmware... will it get updates, will it have bugs, problems,
caveats, etc....
- ADSL annex B - don't mind this - can happily live with that if it is a
good router / ATA and no other caveats (e.g. unofficial firmware issues,
etc.) ( + see my previous post).

The only thing I would really want or need is English language...

But if the firmware options are good enough for English and Annex conversion
then great ! :) .

As I say my only concern is the support of said unofficial firmware's - are
they any good, will they be updated.... but to be fair ... they probably are
and usually tend to be (user community supported stuff tends to go on longer
and be better, more often than not, than official support, etc.).


Best wishes and any feedback / input appreciated,



News Reader


P.s. We can continue this discussion under the original (previous)
sub-thread if you like?

"Ivor Jones" <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote in message
news:5ld28dF7koaoU1@mid.individual.net...[color=blue]
>
>
> "News Reader" <no@email.invalid> wrote in message
> news:MfcIi.32174$ka7.28735@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net
> : : "Philippe Deleye"
> : : <Philippe.Deleye@blablabla.advalvas.be> wrote in
> : : message
> : : news:46ecf628$0$13849$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
> : : :
> : : : "News Reader" <no@email.invalid> wrote in message
> : : : news:lmZGi.709$aN2.455@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> : : : :
> : : : : However, I think what you suggest probably depends
> : : : : on getting both a UK rather than Deutsch / EU
> : : : : version and a PSTN rather than ISDN model.
> : : : :
> : : :
> : : : There is one big misunderstanding about the German
> : : : Fritzboxes beeing a "ISDN
> : : : Model"
> : : : Please note that all FritzBoxes work on both PSTN and
> : : : ISDN * all Boxes have a ISDN and analogue input.
> : : : Therefore you can run them
> : : : on
> : : : a ISDN line and/or a analogue line (even both, but
> : : : this is an undocumented feature)
> : : : * all Boxes have ISDN and analogue outputs (up to 3
> : : : analogue): you can run analogue phones, ISDN phines
> : : : or a ISDN PABX behind the FritzBox
> : : : Note that this even allows to run a ISDN PABX behind
> : : : a analogue BT telephone
> : : : line.
> : : :
> : : : However, all german boxes are set to ADSL "Annex B"
> : : : In Germany, all ADSL lines are "Annex B" (both ADSL
> : : : over a analogue line, as
> : : : ADSL over a ISDN line)
> : : : In the UK (also Belgiu, Netherlands ...) the phone
> : : : companies have decided to
> : : : use "Annex A" over analogue lines, and "Annex B" over
> : : : ISDN lines.
> : : : Hence the big misunderstanding. Altough "Annex A" or
> : : : "Annex B" have - strictly spoken - nothing to do with
> : : : analogue or ISDN, it is the way how BT
> : : : (and other European providers) operates ADSL.
> : : : Hence ADSL over a analogue line (Annex A) will not
> : : : function on German boxes
> : : : (set to Annex B)
> : : :
> : : : Please note that Annex A or B is completely
> : : : irrelevant if you use the FB on
> : : : a existing internet connection (e.g. behind a cable
> : : : modem, or as "client" behind an existing router
> : : :
> : : : Philippe (Belgium)
> : : :
> : : :
> : :
> : :
> : : Hi,
> : :
> : :
> : : Their was suddenly quite a barrage of detailed posts -
> : : has taken me a while to get round to reviewing, etc.
> : :
> : : I think the big questions for me are...
> : :
> : : 1) on a German model - will the ADSL not work in the UK?
>
> No. Germany uses Annex B, the UK Annex A.
>
> : : 2) can you flash a German model with English firmware
> : : so you can read the menus, etc. (will this break some
> : : things?, etc.)
>
> No and yes.
>
> : : 3) great that you can use any external
> : : line ISDN or POTS and likewise for the attached phones
> : : 4) I think it sounds nice - assuming the bits about the
> : : firmware and English, etc. - at the price these seem to
> : : be available from Germany, I don't mind having to use
> : : it in Port 1 WAN mode and disable the internal ADSL
> : : modem.
>
> What model do you want..? All except the 7170 are currently available in
> Annex A and the 7170 should be soon, according to AVM.
>
> Ivor
>[/color]


Hi Ivor,


Thanks for the input.

I think it is really just a case of justifying the expense... the ADSL side
is not imperative - only the English menus really matter I think. Hence, it
is not so much about wanting a model that is not available in English,
rather that German models are available second hand at less than 25% of the
price of English models.

Further, I understand it is possible to use self help groups that have
unofficial firmware's that convert to English and apparently even convert
Annex B to A, etc.?

As I say, that would be nice, but the ADSL side is not strictly necessary
for me (would be nice) - but English menus is what really matters.

Perhaps you can provide more insight about the firmware and breaking stuff
aspects of my original question on that, etc.


Thanks again and best wishes,




News Reader

"News Reader" <no@email.invalid> wrote in message
news:MfcIi.32174$ka7.28735@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
[color=blue]
> I think the big questions for me are...[/color]
[color=blue]
> 1) on a German model - will the ADSL not work in the UK?[/color]
* Not on a UK POTS line as such
* Unless you flash as Annex A.
However, this is a un-supported change of the original Firmware
[color=blue]
> 2) can you flash a German model with English firmware so you can read the
> menus, etc. (will this break some things?, etc.)[/color]
* I believe you can. I have read reports of succesful conversions, but I
guess not so simple.
You need to change the "branding" from "avm" to "avme" and then flash with
english firmware
I believe a lot of hurdles (e.g. problems if you new frmware is older than
the existing one)
Once succesfully converted, I believe you then can use the official english
firmware updates from the AVM site
And of course only on the models which are available in english ?
[color=blue]
> 3) great that you can use any external line ISDN or POTS and likewise for
> the attached phones[/color]
Yes >>> and even use ISDN on a FB connected to POTS
[color=blue]
> 4) I think it sounds nice - assuming the bits about the firmware and
> English, etc. - at the price these seem to be available from Germany, I
> don't mind having to use it in Port 1 WAN mode and disable the internal[/color]
ADSL[color=blue]
> modem.[/color]
[color=blue]
> P.s. Someone mentioned that if using the FB in port 1 WAN mode (ADSL modem
> disabled) it behaves strangely or impacts other operating - can you[/color]
comment[color=blue]
> on any of this?[/color]

I have successfully installed a FB behind exting ADSL modems or routers.
* If you use the FB behind a cable modem, then you use the FB as a router,
and you connect all your PC's behind the FB (port 3-4, or port B)
* If you use the FB behind a router (e.g. external ADSL modem/router) then
you need to run the FB as a "client" (router behind a router does not make
sence, isn't?)
The only issue in the latter case, is that the FB can not optimise traffic
(the traffic shaping feauture in the FB makes sure your VOIP connection gets
the needed bandwith, and eventually reduces the bandwith to attached PC's -
upload bandwith is usually the bottleneck for VOIP)
[color=blue]
> P.p.s. Can you enable / disable the routing function so it acts just as an
> ATA through the WAN port 1?[/color]
Yes - see above

Also, is it a good router (DMZ, rules, stateful > packet inspection
firewall, etc., etc.)
not sure about DMZ, but routing tables, port forwarding etc is there

Philippe

"Philippe Deleye" <Philippe.Deleye@blablabla.advalvas.be> wrote in message
news:46f20945$0$13849$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...

Further to my own post re. Annex A and english software:

I have heard (read) that you may need to flash your FB back to Annex B
before you can do a english firmware update.
Orginal Annex A and Annex B boxes are different (hardware), and the Annex A
firmware may not work on a modified FB
I guess the sequence is
* Converting the Box to english
* Install latest Firmware, Annex B
* flashing to Annex A

Before each Firmware Upgrade
* Flashing back to Annex B
* Install Firmware update, Annex B
* flashing to Annex A

Of course you will only do this, if you really need the latest Firmware. In
many cases, Firware updates are not really big changes, and may not justify
to go to this trouble
PS - I cannot confirm above - I have no experience with english software
My "own" advsie would be: keep them in the original language, and try to
make you work trough the menus (learn a few words of German?)
This is a one-time effort, and you can get help from this newsgroup if
needed

Ph

"Philippe Deleye" <Philippe.Deleye@blablabla.advalvas.be> wrote in message
news:46f20edb$0$13857$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...[color=blue]
>
> "Philippe Deleye" <Philippe.Deleye@blablabla.advalvas.be> wrote in message
> news:46f20945$0$13849$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
>
> Further to my own post re. Annex A and english software:
>
> I have heard (read) that you may need to flash your FB back to Annex B
> before you can do a english firmware update.
> Orginal Annex A and Annex B boxes are different (hardware), and the Annex
> A
> firmware may not work on a modified FB
> I guess the sequence is
> * Converting the Box to english
> * Install latest Firmware, Annex B
> * flashing to Annex A
>
> Before each Firmware Upgrade
> * Flashing back to Annex B
> * Install Firmware update, Annex B
> * flashing to Annex A
>
> Of course you will only do this, if you really need the latest Firmware.
> In
> many cases, Firware updates are not really big changes, and may not
> justify
> to go to this trouble
> PS - I cannot confirm above - I have no experience with english software
> My "own" advsie would be: keep them in the original language, and try to
> make you work trough the menus (learn a few words of German?)
> This is a one-time effort, and you can get help from this newsgroup if
> needed
>
> Ph
>
>[/color]


Hi,


This is kind of where I was borderline at (learn more German). The only
thing is it is probably mostly all technical terms, most of which I know or
can easily and more certainly research in English, and equally I tend to
like to play and learn most all a device can do, and variously configure,
etc. at different timers (quite frequently probably - and extensively across
a wide range of configurations and configuration options). Hence, rather
than being a basic install and leave, where the German wouldn't be to
difficult, it would be a quite significantly greater challenge for me.

Thank you very much again. I hope you and others equally / similarly
knowledgeable, helpful, etc. are around if / when I go down this road :) .
Of course, other equivalent units by different manufacturers in English may
turn up, or the FB English version may become more readily available at
cheaper prices.

I saw on eBay a pretty incredible device - ADSL Modem, router, ATA and
wireless! - £20. Only thing, it only had 1 Ethernet port (hence no WAN
option).. they do do 4 port's etc. I believe but don't know that anyone is
importing them. Further, not so sure about specifics / capabilities - but
seems generally very good.

Anyhow - if you have any further input or suggestions it is and would be
much appreciated.

Another equally valid line of enquiry would be alternative hardware units
that are comparable / at least as good, flexible, capable and competent as a
FB. Any suggestions, thoughts (about alternative comparable hardware units -
i.e. other makes and models, etc.)?


Thanks again and best wishes,



News Reader

"News Reader" <no@email.invalid> wrote in message
news:cpxIi.9689$gZ.7918@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...[color=blue]
>
> "Philippe Deleye" <Philippe.Deleye@blablabla.advalvas.be> wrote in message
> news:46f20edb$0$13857$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...[color=green]
>>
>> "Philippe Deleye" <Philippe.Deleye@blablabla.advalvas.be> wrote in
>> message
>> news:46f20945$0$13849$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
>>
>> Further to my own post re. Annex A and english software:
>>
>> I have heard (read) that you may need to flash your FB back to Annex B
>> before you can do a english firmware update.
>> Orginal Annex A and Annex B boxes are different (hardware), and the Annex
>> A
>> firmware may not work on a modified FB
>> I guess the sequence is
>> * Converting the Box to english
>> * Install latest Firmware, Annex B
>> * flashing to Annex A
>>
>> Before each Firmware Upgrade
>> * Flashing back to Annex B
>> * Install Firmware update, Annex B
>> * flashing to Annex A
>>
>> Of course you will only do this, if you really need the latest Firmware.
>> In
>> many cases, Firware updates are not really big changes, and may not
>> justify
>> to go to this trouble
>> PS - I cannot confirm above - I have no experience with english software
>> My "own" advsie would be: keep them in the original language, and try to
>> make you work trough the menus (learn a few words of German?)
>> This is a one-time effort, and you can get help from this newsgroup if
>> needed
>>
>> Ph
>>
>>[/color]
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
> This is kind of where I was borderline at (learn more German). The only
> thing is it is probably mostly all technical terms, most of which I know
> or can easily and more certainly research in English, and equally I tend
> to like to play and learn most all a device can do, and variously
> configure, etc. at different timers (quite frequently probably - and
> extensively across a wide range of configurations and configuration
> options). Hence, rather than being a basic install and leave, where the
> German wouldn't be to difficult, it would be a quite significantly greater
> challenge for me.
>
> Thank you very much again. I hope you and others equally / similarly
> knowledgeable, helpful, etc. are around if / when I go down this road :) .
> Of course, other equivalent units by different manufacturers in English
> may turn up, or the FB English version may become more readily available
> at cheaper prices.
>
> I saw on eBay a pretty incredible device - ADSL Modem, router, ATA and
> wireless! - £20. Only thing, it only had 1 Ethernet port (hence no WAN
> option).. they do do 4 port's etc. I believe but don't know that anyone is
> importing them. Further, not so sure about specifics / capabilities - but
> seems generally very good.
>
> Anyhow - if you have any further input or suggestions it is and would be
> much appreciated.
>
> Another equally valid line of enquiry would be alternative hardware units
> that are comparable / at least as good, flexible, capable and competent as
> a FB. Any suggestions, thoughts (about alternative comparable hardware
> units - i.e. other makes and models, etc.)?
>
>
> Thanks again and best wishes,
>
>
>
> News Reader
>
>
>[/color]


Hi,


P.s. Any ideas about some of the other questions in the later sub-threads
below?

E.g. signalling, etc. (particularly the below - copied message). You have
most kindly done a wonderful job in helping with and answering all my other
questions.


Best wishes,



News Reader


P.s. How many simultaneous VoIP accounts does the FB support?


=== START OF COPY OF OTHER MESSAGE ===


Hi,


Sorry to interject on this sub-thread and as you say Philippe, it is getting
a bit long and / or confused, etc. - but anyhow... last jump in on this
sub-thread for now(!), ...

Does the FB allow remote through dialling? E.g. At PC away from FB. Dial a
VoIP account registered with the FB, FB rings, FB then presents dialtone and
allows onward dialling through attached PSTN line?

Further, what signalling does it support for external line dialling? E.g. if
it was ISDN I expect it would provide full signalling - dialling, ringing,
answered, etc. How or what does it do if connected to a POTS line
(particularly in terms of call progress / status signalling, etc.)?

Thanks so much, best wishes and all your help is greatly appreciated.


Best wishes,




News Reader


P.s. On the multiple SIP accounts thing - I am pretty sure SipGate allow
multiple registrations, as Philippe suggests, at least from different
locations - hence multiple incoming ringing. As for outgoing I am not so
sure - but definitely some SIP providers do - again as Philippe states,
generally it makes sense for most SIP providers as it increases potential
revenue. Try it is probably the best plan :) .


=== END OF COPY OF OTHER MESSAGE ===