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"JakeD" <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com> wrote in message
news:il7oe3pgq3crk6vderqt103k0kdgp3tf93@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:54:04 +0100, JakeD <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com>
> wrote:
>
> PS.. It's a bit strange that the bad connection always seems to start
> around 7.00pm or 8.00pm though.... From 7.00am to 7.00pm, it has
> generally been mostly OK.
>
> BTW, I'm hoping I can keep the loud mains (?) powered bell, because my
> elderly landlady really needs it to hear when the phone is ringing...
>
> Jake D[/color]


Hi,


I would just sound a little note or two of caution.

Whilst by and large this should all be fine, present and correct, etc. -
their is a possibility that if your extension bell is particularly odd, old,
curious, inept, ill, etc. it could still cause a problem or problems with
your ADSL, etc. even if you use a fancy filtered face plate.

I don't think you need a filtered face plate, it may help but may make no
difference.

In short, my thinking goes:

- if it is something to do with your master socket, it is most probably
that it has dodgy extension wiring (includes additional device connections
such as, in your case, the extension bells wiring) or a dodgy connected
extension device (your bell itself). The master socket itself is probably
fine.
- if it is not your bell, it's extension wiring or the wiring of the
extension within the master socket - then it may well indeed be the line
itself (back from the back of the master socket off to the exchange). This
sounds increasingly likely or possible because as you point out, you have a
time related symptom - particularly one which is evening and night time
related (which, if I recall correctly, is when noise on lines increases).
This is unlikely to be related to your bell, et. al. or not so obviously.

Hence, I would do some of the hallowed modular swap out testing.

1) - Eliminate all internal issues. Remove the user removable front plate of
the current master socket. (Assuming no-one has done any super creative
bodgery and their is nothing else wired in to the master socket / the back
of the master socket; the wiring into the master socket is good; and that
the master socket itself is good)... plug your [ known good ;) ] ADSL filter
into the test socket of the master socket. Conduct extensive testing - good
hours and bad hours (i.e. night and day) and for extended periods. (Again
make sure you are testing with known good equipment - i.e. that your ADSL
kit AND its cables [the cable from the ADSL modem to the ADSL filter] are
known good - i.e. tested and proven fine at a similar installation somewhere
else). If everything works fine, your problem is with the bell or its wiring
into the master socket extension connector. If you still have problems, the
line is almost definitely dodgy (vis-a-vis my previous remarks concerning
intermittent line faults - workmen in road, water ingress, etc., etc.) - and
it is BT's side of the line and their responsibility. Sadly, that doesn't
necessarily mean it is easy thence to get corrected - but you would at least
hopefully be starting down the right road. And you can be sure where the
fault is, and assuming someone knowledgeable on the phone, explain how you
know and what modular swap out fault testing you have done to confirm and
isolate the fault origin ;) , etc.

If we have now identified that everything is fine here (upto step 1 thus
far - i.e. not a "line" fault) then --->

2) - Eliminate bell and its wiring. What we are doing now is having
concluded that the line is ok; we proceed to isolate the bell and its wiring
to determine if that or potentially the master socket itself are faulty. So
now we are going to evaluate and attempt to exclude the bell as the cause of
the fault. (These bells as I say can be mighty odd - especially if old,
mains powered, etc. - it could introduce all sorts of stray or odd signals -
and it may be that this is more pivotal at the higher noise night time -
although the likelihood of that is probably somewhat marginal). I.e. unplug
it at the master socket (i.e. disconnect any and every extension connection
from behind the user removable part of the master socket front). Plug the
(now extensions stripped off / out) master socket front panel back in the
master socket. Perform the same testing as in stage 1 above by plugging
ONLY, your ADSL filter into the front of the master socket and then into the
ADSL filter ONLY your ADSL modem (again... and then perform the above
extensive testing). If everything broadband side works, the fault is the
bell, the bells wiring or the way the bells wiring was connected to the
master socket. If still not working, the master socket front panel is
buggered (in which case - your new ebay one should fix everything! - unless
you are very unlucky and happen to get a bad one! - lol - only joking).

If everything identified fine here --->

3) - As by reaching step 3 here, we would have identified the bell, its
wiring or how it was connected to the master socket as the problem - we can
now isolate which of these last three component parameters could be the
problem. First exclude "how the bell is wired into the master socket"...
wire it back in VERY WELL and 100% correctly (lol - read the user manual for
the bell - more lol's! - or check some online wiring sockets type guides or
websites / pages, etc.). Fixed problem? It was badly wired in in the first
place. All solved. Still not working? Your choice - depending on how the
bell is wired and made (at the bell's end of its phone extension cable!)..
either unplug the bell from the bell end of its extension cable... problem
solved? = Bell is bad. Problem not solved = bell's wiring is bad (replace
bells extension wiring with a new bit of extension wiring). You may find if
the bells extension wiring is bad, that the problem replicates even with new
bell extension wiring - as the bell may also be incompatible / introducing
to much noise anyhow (i.e. is additionally faulty to the bells extension
cable). If you cannot remove the phone extension wiring from the bell end,
you may try a few other things; try unplugging the power supply for the bell
(you say it is mains powered). If that fixes it = bell is the problem; not
fixed = may be the bells phone extension wiring or may still be the bell.
Gets a bit harder to produce certainty for you here without a soldering
iron, etc. But I would at this stage, if you still have the problem and
haven't been able to further isolate the problem, suggest that buying a more
modern / new replacement bell WITH wiring should sort it out.

Hope some of this helps.

As the other poster suggests, you may find that a special filtered ADSL
master socket will work with your bell, but it sounds a little like
clutching at straws, and I would want to know what was the problem cause
before going down that road - especially as it doesn't appear to guarantee
to fix it. Further, as you say, it is not cheap, and I would not like for
you to have forked out for it and fitted it to find your problem persists
(e.g. if the bell is really "dirty" it may pump untold crap down its
extension wiring sufficient to overpower any adsl master socket). Equally,
the above evaluations may help you better identify the culprit with
certainty which may save you needing to address this side of things anyhow.

Finally, it is pretty unusual by my understanding, for a master socket to
"go bad". They are usually pretty dependable, reliable and don't have a lot
to go wrong in / with them - and even if something has gone wrong it would
seem unusual or unlikely for it to exhibit by causing this kind of problem
(instead you might get loss of ring tone, etc.). Generally the master socket
is BT's responsibility. In short, if the fault is from the test socket back,
it is BT's problem (essentially no matter what - but in reality so long as
it is not caused by something "you" have done; a common example of a normal
fault cause not due to the customer would be damage due to lightning). If
the fault is with the front part of the master socket; it is probably really
BT's issue, but they may or probably will claim it is your fault and
something you have done to it and so want to charge you for its replacement
or repair. To be fair, unless you have obviously staved it in or plugged
something really weird into it or the extension socket and melted it, I
expect BT would replace it as faulty due to no fault of your own, etc. I
think it is most likely an intermittent line fault; followed by something to
do with the bell being bad or dodgy.

Hope that helps.


Best wishes,



News Reader


P.s. Let us know how you get on :) .

"Jono" <nothanks@blueyonder.invalid> wrote in message
news:mn.7c847d79d39643db.48968@blueyonder.invalid...[color=blue]
> JakeD expressed precisely :[color=green]
>> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:54:04 +0100, JakeD <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> PS.. It's a bit strange that the bad connection always seems to start
>> around 7.00pm or 8.00pm though.... From 7.00am to 7.00pm, it has
>> generally been mostly OK.[/color]
>
> Not really. Line "noise" generally increases in the evening
>
>[color=green]
>> BTW, I'm hoping I can keep the loud mains (?) powered bell, because my
>> elderly landlady really needs it to hear when the phone is ringing...[/color]
>
> You must filter it. So, unless you can plug it into the "phone" side of a
> filter, in order to keep it, you will need to either cobble together a
> lead that allows you to plug it in to the filter or put a filtered
> faceplate in.
>
>[/color]


Hi,


Good point ;) - lol... Sounds like that is almost definitely the short
version answer of my reply post ;) .

Belt and braces in my version if you want to be / make sure, etc.


Best wishes,



News Reader

;)

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 19:13:45 GMT, "News Reader" <no@email.invalid>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Equally,
>the above evaluations may help you better identify the culprit[/color]

Yes, I certainly think so. I will print out your comments and use them
to systematically find the problem by process of elimination. Thanks
also to Jono for his help. You both have been more helpful than I
could ever have hoped for. I mean, I have posted awkward problems on
the usenet before but have never had such a concerted effort at
helpfulness before, so I'm truely grateful.
[color=blue]
>Finally, it is pretty unusual by my understanding, for a master socket to
>"go bad". They are usually pretty dependable, reliable and don't have a lot
>to go wrong in / with them - and even if something has gone wrong it would
>seem unusual or unlikely for it to exhibit by causing this kind of problem
>(instead you might get loss of ring tone, etc.). Generally the master socket
>is BT's responsibility. In short, if the fault is from the test socket back,
>it is BT's problem (essentially no matter what - but in reality so long as
>it is not caused by something "you" have done; a common example of a normal
>fault cause not due to the customer would be damage due to lightning). If
>the fault is with the front part of the master socket; it is probably really
>BT's issue, but they may or probably will claim it is your fault and
>something you have done to it and so want to charge you for its replacement
>or repair. To be fair, unless you have obviously staved it in or plugged
>something really weird into it or the extension socket and melted it, I
>expect BT would replace it as faulty due to no fault of your own, etc. I
>think it is most likely an intermittent line fault; followed by something to
>do with the bell being bad or dodgy.[/color]

That's what I thought (that the master socket and everything else
going back to the exchange was BT's responsibility. Unfortunately,
this supposition was blown out of the water when I called BT a couple
of days ago. They said that any faults must be taken up with TalkTalk,
as they are the company now supplying the service via theBT line. I
phoned TalkTalk to report the "faulty face plate" and they informed me
that the master socket was my responsibility since it was inside my
house! They said that they only accept responsibility for the wiring
*outside* the house. I did try to take issue of the fairness of this,
but the gal was adamant. She advised me to pay a local independent
telephone engineer to come and change the master socket. I respended
with: "well, I can wire in a new master socket myself. I've done that
kind of thing before." Her response: "I wouldn't advise that; it's
dangerous. I recommend you get a bloke out of the yellow pages." My
contemplated response: "Dangerous? Yeah, I suppose I could, in theory,
trip over a discraded banana skin and kill myself by knocking my head
on the corner of the master socket...." My actual response: Should the
bloke out of the yellow pages have any particular qualifications or
certification?" Her response: "No". My response: "Well, I may as well
do the job myself then. I don't have any qualification or
certification either, and I have done it before, successfully." Her
response: "Well, if you're confident, then go ahead..." My
contemplated response: "Well I might be confident I could live if I
jumped off the Empire State Building... It doen't mean I will..." (-;

Anyway, after reading your comments, it seems like the master socket
*may* not be the problem and the mains-powered bell *might* be the
problem. I will probably wire in the new faceplate acquired from ebay
and see if that cures the problem. If not, I will disconnect the
mains-powered bell and see if that cures the problem - and take it
from there.

Thanks a million for the substantial help. It's not every day one
receives focused help like that when in trouble. I will post a
progress report...

Jake D

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:54:22 +0100, Jono <nothanks@blueyonder.invalid>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>If you use a filtered faceplate, your hardwired extensions/bells can
>stay in place as they would be hardwired to the filtered side of the
>faceplate - your adsl modem/router would then plug in to the unfiltered
>rj11 socket[/color]

I see... Thank you for explaining that.

Jake D

"JakeD" <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com> wrote in message
news:dvnoe3lf6471k5b84b3huujc0ulb3nk3vc@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 19:13:45 GMT, "News Reader" <no@email.invalid>
> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Equally,
>>the above evaluations may help you better identify the culprit[/color]
>
> Yes, I certainly think so. I will print out your comments and use them
> to systematically find the problem by process of elimination. Thanks
> also to Jono for his help. You both have been more helpful than I
> could ever have hoped for. I mean, I have posted awkward problems on
> the usenet before but have never had such a concerted effort at
> helpfulness before, so I'm truely grateful.
>[color=green]
>>Finally, it is pretty unusual by my understanding, for a master socket to
>>"go bad". They are usually pretty dependable, reliable and don't have a
>>lot
>>to go wrong in / with them - and even if something has gone wrong it would
>>seem unusual or unlikely for it to exhibit by causing this kind of problem
>>(instead you might get loss of ring tone, etc.). Generally the master
>>socket
>>is BT's responsibility. In short, if the fault is from the test socket
>>back,
>>it is BT's problem (essentially no matter what - but in reality so long as
>>it is not caused by something "you" have done; a common example of a
>>normal
>>fault cause not due to the customer would be damage due to lightning). If
>>the fault is with the front part of the master socket; it is probably
>>really
>>BT's issue, but they may or probably will claim it is your fault and
>>something you have done to it and so want to charge you for its
>>replacement
>>or repair. To be fair, unless you have obviously staved it in or plugged
>>something really weird into it or the extension socket and melted it, I
>>expect BT would replace it as faulty due to no fault of your own, etc. I
>>think it is most likely an intermittent line fault; followed by something
>>to
>>do with the bell being bad or dodgy.[/color]
>
> That's what I thought (that the master socket and everything else
> going back to the exchange was BT's responsibility. Unfortunately,
> this supposition was blown out of the water when I called BT a couple
> of days ago. They said that any faults must be taken up with TalkTalk,
> as they are the company now supplying the service via theBT line. I
> phoned TalkTalk to report the "faulty face plate" and they informed me
> that the master socket was my responsibility since it was inside my
> house! They said that they only accept responsibility for the wiring
> *outside* the house. I did try to take issue of the fairness of this,
> but the gal was adamant. She advised me to pay a local independent
> telephone engineer to come and change the master socket. I respended
> with: "well, I can wire in a new master socket myself. I've done that
> kind of thing before." Her response: "I wouldn't advise that; it's
> dangerous. I recommend you get a bloke out of the yellow pages." My
> contemplated response: "Dangerous? Yeah, I suppose I could, in theory,
> trip over a discraded banana skin and kill myself by knocking my head
> on the corner of the master socket...." My actual response: Should the
> bloke out of the yellow pages have any particular qualifications or
> certification?" Her response: "No". My response: "Well, I may as well
> do the job myself then. I don't have any qualification or
> certification either, and I have done it before, successfully." Her
> response: "Well, if you're confident, then go ahead..." My
> contemplated response: "Well I might be confident I could live if I
> jumped off the Empire State Building... It doen't mean I will..." (-;
>
> Anyway, after reading your comments, it seems like the master socket
> *may* not be the problem and the mains-powered bell *might* be the
> problem. I will probably wire in the new faceplate acquired from ebay
> and see if that cures the problem. If not, I will disconnect the
> mains-powered bell and see if that cures the problem - and take it
> from there.
>
> Thanks a million for the substantial help. It's not every day one
> receives focused help like that when in trouble. I will post a
> progress report...
>
> Jake D
>[/color]


Hi Jake,


Thanks - and you are most welcome.

As for BT and Talk Talk... they are just not really teaching their people
what to say and failing to teach them to say things that are actually
particularly or very useful or helpful! lol...

BT could do with kindly explaining the reality... e.g. (an example of what
their kind of script could / perhaps should be) "your supplier is Talk Talk"
(then... assuming you are LLU or wholesale line rental with Talk Talk...)",
that means when you have a problem you have to tell them about it and then
they will get our division called Open Reach to check and repair any fault".

Talk Talk could similarly do with some improvement - evidently actually the
boundary is drawn at the master socket and I am pretty certain Open Reach
would do a fair bit of screaming and shouting if they knew or suspected some
service providers were telling customers otherwise - and encouraging anyone
but them (Open Reach) to fiddle with, adjust or repair, etc. master socket
side and beyond (off to the exchange), equipment / line, etc. Sadly, as with
many of these organisations, and as above, often the front line staff are
not very well trained, etc. and often worse, are left to or encouraged to,
come up with their own idea, thought or suggestion of a best answer!

In the latter sort of situations, one often has to do a certain amount of
compensatory or corrective creative jiggery pokery (in one's presentation of
a situation or problem) - e.g. in your case for example, saying "the 'line'
just as it goes into the house looks knackered / damaged", to overcome the
nonesense BS about the master socket being your (the customers)
responsibility! Then when the Open Reach guy comes round, you just explain
that Talk Talk told you the master socket was the customers responsibility,
etc. and they will probably sigh and go oh well, thank god you managed to
get us (Open Reach) out as that is the right thing to do and we are the
people that are supposed to deal with the master socket and line side of
things! lol. But... this is only sound reasoning or a sound approach to take
if you are sure (or VERY sure / sure enough [again read certain or VERY
sure]) that the master socket is actually bad or you can end up with a big
unnecessary call out bill from your provider Talk Talk / and / or Open Reach
(i.e. that one is sure any fault is definitely on the Open Reach side not
the consumer premises / consumer premises equipment side of things), etc.

In any event, all good, etc. :)

Keep us posted. Thanks for your kind words and I hope some of the
suggestions are helpful, etc.


Best wishes,



News Reader

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 00:50:06 GMT, "News Reader" <no@email.invalid>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Then when the Open Reach guy comes round, you just explain
>that Talk Talk told you the master socket was the customers responsibility,
>etc. and they will probably sigh and go oh well, thank god you managed to
>get us (Open Reach) out as that is the right thing to do and we are the
>people that are supposed to deal with the master socket and line side of
>things! lol. But... this is only sound reasoning or a sound approach to take
>if you are sure (or VERY sure / sure enough [again read certain or VERY
>sure]) that the master socket is actually bad or you can end up with a big
>unnecessary call out bill from your provider Talk Talk / and / or Open Reach
>(i.e. that one is sure any fault is definitely on the Open Reach side not
>the consumer premises / consumer premises equipment side of things), etc.[/color]

Thanks very much for putting me in the picture about Open Reach etc.
After reading your comments, I think I had better not involve Open
Reach at this stage, because of the loud bell that has been hard-wired
into the main body of the master socket. I have no idea who did that
job; it may well not have been done by a previous resident, and if so,
I could be accused of buggering up their socket and receive a huge
bill for call-out +repairs. I would think it makes sense for me to
just quietly change the cover plate and then, if necessary, quietly
remove the loud bell, (leaving no trace, where it was wired into the
socket) and take it from there. Does that make sense?

Jake D

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 11:25:48 +0100, JakeD <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com>
wrote:[color=blue]
>I would think it makes sense for me to
>just quietly change the cover plate and then, if necessary, quietly
>remove the loud bell, (leaving no trace, where it was wired into the
>socket) and take it from there. Does that make sense?[/color]

PS. Today, during one of the breaks in my bradband connection, I
disconnected the loud bell from the BT master socket. This made no
difference; I still could not conect to the net.

When the new master socket arrives, I'll try replacing the face plate.

Jake D

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:10:40 +0100, JakeD <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>PS. Today, during one of the breaks in my bradband connection, I
>disconnected the loud bell from the BT master socket. This made no
>difference; I still could not conect to the net.
>
>When the new master socket arrives, I'll try replacing the face plate.[/color]

PPS
During a period of OK-connection, with my adsl filter plugged into the
hidden socket behind the master socket's face plate, I did a speed
test today, at:

[url]http://www.speedtest.bbmax.co.uk/[/url]

The results were:
971 kbps download speed
243 kbps upload speed

Does this indicate anything?

Thanks,

Jake D

"JakeD" <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com> wrote in message
news:cb0qe3pdikba8n20ifq7bsp48c3jrg6hpd@4ax.com...[color=blue]
>
> Thanks very much for putting me in the picture about Open Reach etc.
> After reading your comments, I think I had better not involve Open
> Reach at this stage, because of the loud bell that has been hard-wired
> into the main body of the master socket. I have no idea who did that
> job; it may well not have been done by a previous resident, and if so,
> I could be accused of buggering up their socket and receive a huge
> bill for call-out +repairs. I would think it makes sense for me to
> just quietly change the cover plate and then, if necessary, quietly
> remove the loud bell, (leaving no trace, where it was wired into the
> socket) and take it from there. Does that make sense?[/color]

If, as it appears you are saying above, the bell has been hardwired to the A
and B terminals of the incoming line (ie directly to the rear of the part of
the installation which contains the test socket, and not to the removable
faceplate), then IMO this would not be desirable anyway as it is therefore
bypassing any attempts at filtering even if you use a filtered faceplate.

Rob

On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:51:30 +0100, "Rob" <nobody@this.place.invalid>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>
>If, as it appears you are saying above, the bell has been hardwired to the A
>and B terminals of the incoming line (ie directly to the rear of the part of
>the installation which contains the test socket, and not to the removable
>faceplate), then IMO this would not be desirable anyway as it is therefore
>bypassing any attempts at filtering even if you use a filtered faceplate.
>
>Rob[/color]

Hi Rob,

Thanks... My mistake; the bell was actually wired to the face-plate. I
have now removed it but it didn't cure the problem.

Jake D